Island Man

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Posts by Island Man

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  11

  Watchtower can cite their sources after all

  by wannaexit in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as far as i can remember watchtower has been notorious for not citing their sources in their literature.

  the most they will do is to cite their in house, long living expert by the name of scholar.

  after 40 + years all i've ever read is the mantra "one scholar says" ad nauseum.

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  Island Man

  The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant.

  Nice quote.
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  96

  Ray Franz was an Idiot

  by vinman in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  ray franz who gave us insight into the gb due to a crisis of conscience was an absolute moron, with absolutely no critical thinking skills whatsoever like all of us have.

  i mean, to have a conscience based on some magic man in the sky.. how stupid can you be?

  in search of christian freedom?

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  Island Man

  Ray may have continued to be a deluded theist, but I think that his continued christian-theism delusion did a lot more good than would have been done if he became an atheist.

  You see, if Ray had become an atheist then much fewer JWs would have woken up as a result of his defection. Had he become an atheist then Watchtower's characterization of his as an apostate would have seemed even more justified and would have had far more credibility with JWs.

  But because he continued to be a christian he maintained a valuable common ground with JWs - the bible, belief in Jehovah, Jesus, christianity - which he can use to help them see Watchtower's error. A person who believes the bible and knows it well, has a greater chance of being able to help JWs see the error of their ways in light of the bible; than would an atheist trying to disprove Watchtower. The JW will completely shut his mind to the latter, but will give a measure of attention and credence to what the former has to say - to the extent that he can show its coming from the bible.

  So Ray was a very valuable asset in helping many escape Watchtower. Many who later became atheists, started their journey out of Watchtower by reading Ray's books. That journey may never have started if Ray was an atheist. No God-believing JW is going to give credence to an atheist's criticisms of Watchtower. So Ray serves as a valuable stepping stone or gateway from Watchtower to atheism - for those who do later become atheists. For most, the journey cannot be straight from Watchtower to atheism. It has to be from Watchtower to more moderate theism and then atheism.

  Don't be dissing Ray.
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  35

  why did the sacrafice have to be so BRUTAL

  by Tater-T in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  why did the sacrifice have to be so brutal... i mean what value does that add to the equation of justice.couldn't he jesus have came down and just been slaughtered like a regular sacrifice without the brutal torture.why is justice served by brutalityanyone anyone bueller... lolnow you know i don't like to type for hours but this is always bothered me

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  Island Man

  Ancient religions throughout the earth have been practicing human and animal sacrifice for centuries before the advent of Judaism and christianity and its not hard to see how the offering of sacrifices arose.

  Ancient people attributed agency to deadly events like droughts, storms, volcanic eruptions, etc. They assumed that a god or gods were behind them and brought them to take human lives. So if the gods bring horrible disasters to get human lives how do you stop the gods from bringing the disasters? Simple. You find a way to give the gods what they want - human lives - so that they would have no need to bring the disaster to get them. So you offer the gods sacrifices. True, lives are still being taken. But the difference with sacrifices is that the community gets to feel like they're at least in control of the situation. They can determine who dies and when they die instead of having to be in the powerless situation of a god unexpectedly bringing a disaster to kill god knows how many, who and in what manner.

  But then another problem arises - the amount of people killed in natural disasters are invariably more than the amount of people that will be sacrificed to avert them. Why would a god accept the death of one person served up on a platter when he can claim a hundred lives in a flood? This idea likely troubled the ancients. So how did they resolve it? They don't just offer up anyone. They offer up the best among them- the most beautiful, the most strong, the most virtuous - the virgin - the one or few who are the most perfect in the community. Surely the gods would prefer to have a few guaranteed high quality lives served up to them on a platter rather than working to take lives in a natural disaster where persons of all sorts die with no guarantee that they'll get a life of good quality. And thus the notion of having a suitable sacrifice of high quality - an unblemished lamb, an innocent, chaste virgin, etc.

  Sacrifices also work for the belief that the gods bring disasters to punish the people for their sins. Instead of the whole community being punished for their sins by the gods, why not have one individual bear the sins of the whole community and be punished on behalf of the whole community? But if this person is himself a notorious sinner then it would stand to reason that he deserves punishment for his own sins. So perhaps when the gods are finished with punishing him for his own sins there wouldn't be any of him left to be punished on behalf of the rest of the community and the gods will still punish the community for its sins. So to resolve this issue, the one who is to be sacrificed to the gods for the sins of the community, has to be one who is innocent enough that his own sins are not so numerous that he has no room left in himself to also carry the sins of the community.

  Killing the sacrificial victim in an especially slow, painful and brutal manner could also have been thought up as a way of justifying the death of one man or woman for a whole community. Let the gods see the lone victim experiencing the brutality equivalent to experiencing a thousand deaths and maybe the gods will agree that his death is more than sufficient to compensate for the hundreds of deaths that the gods would have otherwise taken by some natural calamity.

  The whole concept of the ransom sacrifice integral to christianity and the animal sacrifices of Judaism go way, way back in time much earlier and more primitive pagan cultures who devised the concept of sacrifices through superstitious beliefs.
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  52

  Helen Keller is not a hero

  by StopTheTears in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  few realize just how wicked some of the most revered people in history were.

  helen keeler (1880 to 1968) was a wolf in sheep's clothing, no hero.

  keller was a communist.

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  Island Man

  StopTheTears, I hope you don't consider yourself a christian because your hatred of communism would mean a hatred of certain principles of christianity. 1st century christians practiced communism. Go read the early chapters of the book of Acts.

  I believe the problem with most people who see communism as evil is that they don't really know what it is. Many people ignorantly equate communism with dictatorships that take away peoples rights to free speech and other human rights. This association likely arose due to the fact that many communist nations have been dictatorships.

  Communism is simply about having an economy where the resources are equitably shared among consumers as opposed to having consumers freely compete to gain as much as their buying power and desire permits. Just like capitalism it has its advantages and disadvantages.

  Personally, I prefer a mix of communism and capitalism to gain the advantages of both and to help counteract or minimize the disadvantages of both. Naked extreme capitalism isn't healthy and Naked extreme communism has yet to be shown to be a practicable working system.
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  18

  Something odd about how Watchtower portrays prayer versus how JWs actually pray.

  by Island Man in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  watchtower literature often depicts individuals praying with their hands clasped together or kneeling on the ground in their bedroom.. but i don't recall ever seeing a jw praying like that.

  i have never seen a jw praying in a kneeling position or with hands clasped together.

  have you?.

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  Island Man

  But that may not be a sufficient hint for 'worldly' people reading the literature. They will need a stronger hint than that to realize that the JWs are in prayer mode

  You're right, someone could easily mistake a photo of a JW dozing off during the assembly program or dozing off at the meeting at the kingdom hall, for a JW praying during the prayer in the baptismal talk or praying during the prayer over the wine or the bread at the memorial. lol
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  18

  Something odd about how Watchtower portrays prayer versus how JWs actually pray.

  by Island Man in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  watchtower literature often depicts individuals praying with their hands clasped together or kneeling on the ground in their bedroom.. but i don't recall ever seeing a jw praying like that.

  i have never seen a jw praying in a kneeling position or with hands clasped together.

  have you?.

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  Island Man

  Maybe the editors realize that the Witnesses do not take any special prayer position

  I would say that eyes closed with heads slightly bowed, is the JWs' special prayer position. lol.
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  18

  Something odd about how Watchtower portrays prayer versus how JWs actually pray.

  by Island Man in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  watchtower literature often depicts individuals praying with their hands clasped together or kneeling on the ground in their bedroom.. but i don't recall ever seeing a jw praying like that.

  i have never seen a jw praying in a kneeling position or with hands clasped together.

  have you?.

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  Island Man

  But I noticed in one of this years convention videos, a youth was praying with hands clasped!
  strange turn around.....

  Was the convention video a portrayal or skit or was it a documentation of actual real-life prayer?
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  18

  Something odd about how Watchtower portrays prayer versus how JWs actually pray.

  by Island Man in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  watchtower literature often depicts individuals praying with their hands clasped together or kneeling on the ground in their bedroom.. but i don't recall ever seeing a jw praying like that.

  i have never seen a jw praying in a kneeling position or with hands clasped together.

  have you?.

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  Island Man

  Sometimes are see witnesses depicted praying with hands clasped, in the literature. But I've never seen it in real life. In real life, JWs typically just close their eyes and bow their heads slightly while praying. I've never seen one go down on their knees or clasp their hands in real life.
• 
  18

  Something odd about how Watchtower portrays prayer versus how JWs actually pray.

  by Island Man in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  watchtower literature often depicts individuals praying with their hands clasped together or kneeling on the ground in their bedroom.. but i don't recall ever seeing a jw praying like that.

  i have never seen a jw praying in a kneeling position or with hands clasped together.

  have you?.

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• 

  Island Man

  Watchtower literature often depicts individuals praying with their hands clasped together or kneeling on the ground in their bedroom.

  But I don't recall ever seeing a JW praying like that. I have never seen a JW praying in a kneeling position or with hands clasped together. Have you?

  What's up with that?
• 
  39

  Let’s Speculate!!!

  by John Aquila in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  you know the organization is slowly going down.

  not as fast as we would wish, but nevertheless it is crumbling.

  five (5) year old child baptisms, smaller magazines, child sexual abuse exposed, smaller annual growth, no one wants to reach out, young ones leaving.

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  Island Man

  Will there still be a Governing Body?

  The Governing Body will still exist in practice, but they will call it something else. They will drop the name Governing Body and call it some other, more modest-sounding name similar to how they dropped the term Presiding Overseer for the more modest sounding Coordinator of the Body of elders. Maybe they'll call the Governing Body the Coordinating Body or Coordinating Committee or something like that.

  Will they finally drop 1914?

  Yes they will. They will drop 1914 altogether by accepting the correct date of 587 BCE for Jerusalem's destruction and discarding the teaching of an invisible presence. They will be forced to accept that christ's presence is the same as his coming and that it starts in the future - the "very near future, any day now", of course. lol. But they will do all of this only after they have come up with an alternative method of elevating themselves as the faithful and discreet slave, and which does not involve being indirectly tied to a definitive date like 1914.

  Will the blood doctrine finally be dropped?

  Yes. It will become a conscience issue the same as organ transplants.

  Will disfellowshipping be dropped?

  No. But its possible that there might be some easing up on the shunning of disassociated ones if they meet certain criteria. Anyone citing false teachings, false prophecies, hypocrisy or any other kind of maleficence on the part of Watchtower, as their reason for disassociating, will be branded as apostate and shunned upon disassociation. But anyone who simply says they no longer wish to be a JW without saying anything negative about the organization to the elders or other JWs will be allowed leave and be treated as an inactive person. Family will be permitted to have the same limited or guarded social contact with them that they would have with any other non-JW relative with the added restriction of not having spiritual association with them - they can't pray with them of have spiritual conversations with them. But Watchtower will teach JWs to shun any disassociated one who starts to talk negatively about the organization. So they will make shunning of disassociated ones conditional on whether or not they express negative or critical views of the organization. That way Watchtower gets to improve its image as allowing people the option to formally leave the religion without shunning them; while at the same time also protecting the flock against "apostate" views by alerting JWs to shun any who leave and start expressing such views. Those who disassociate from the organization on "good" terms will be announced differently to those who are disfellowshipped or disassociate as an overt "apostate".

  Will there still be Circuit Overseers, Elders, Pioneers?

  Pioneers will still exist but they will be called something else. They will drop the term pioneer as they come to see it as a misnomer. Pioneer hours will drop to something like 50 hours a month and auxiliary pioneer hours to 30. Pioneers may be required to meet an additional requirement in addition to the monthly hours quota. They may be required to also have a minimum number of return visits per month and conduct a minimum number of bible studies per year. These rules will be enacted in a bid to motivate pioneers to do more to get people studying and baptized - to grow the membership numbers. Circuit Overseers and Elders will continue but perhaps they will be given more power.

  I believe Watchtower will be forced to give more power to elders or, more accurately, give elders the appearance of having a more prominent and important role in the organization. By some means - perhaps by periodic confidential letters to bodies of elders worldwide - elders will be made to feel like they have a say in the formulation of policies and doctrines. Of course, Watchtower will just pick the suggestions from the elders that closest match what Watchtower wants to do, and maybe tweak it a bit further to match exactly what Watchtower has in mind. But the elders who appear to come up with good suggestions would feel like they've made a major contribution to the organization and will well up with pride. Elders will thus be made to feel like they have a stake in the organization's operations and be motivated to act more loyally toward the organization. More brothers will then be motivated to reach out.

  This process will give JWs the appearance that power in the organization is less concentrated at the top and trickled down more to the middle, and that therefore the organization is less authoritarian. This will serve as a rationalization or refutation against the accusation that the organization is an authoritarian cult with all the power concentrated at the top in the hands of the leadership in New York.

  Will there still be Judicial Committees?

  Yes. But the manner in which they are carried out will likely be adjusted, especially in the wake of investigations like the Australian Royal commission and other future investigations and legal suits.

  Will they still have conventions 3 times a year?

  Yes but the three-day convention will be reduced to two days with the Friday being eliminated to eliminate the work-related stress that JWs have to undergo to get time off. Also, due to fewer being in attendance on that day. To make up for this there will be other special meetings during the year, which will be held in kingdom halls and will likely involve content being video streamed into kingdom halls from headquarters.

  How many meetings will they have a week?

  They same number of meeting days but they will have additional special meetings, held less frequently, on the same meeting days, to break up the monotony and give the appearance of exciting developments. See above.

  Will they still go door to door preaching?

  Yes, but they will start focusing on other methods like online witnessing. It's possible that JW.org might start a strictly moderated live chat or video web app to allow people around the world to come online at any hour of the day and have a bible e-study with a JW volunteer or e-publisher. These e-publishers will be pioneers around the world who are all scheduled to be available online for specific hours on specific days.

  Will they drop the name; “Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?”

  It is very likely that they will rename the Watchtower magazine and drop the name Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as way to distance themselves from all their crazy, damning literature that is online and quoted by "apostates" and attributed to Watchtower.

  How many members will they have worldwide?

  If a split occurs - and I believe it will - the numbers will suddenly drop by at least a third to about 5 million or less. If not, the growth rate will continue to decelerate until it finally stops and starts to decline gradually.

  Can you imagine in the year 2050 going door to door and preaching;
  “Hello, we here this morning announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom that started ruling in the year 1914”

  Absolutely not!